(no subject)

[hellomajortom]

Tom had heard from his wife about the chaos the night before. It wasn't surprising to him. He'd seen some crazy things at Ziggy's concerts; fainting, screaming, people being liberated from constraints and throwing off their clothes and God might only know what he missed in the crowds and papers. With the addition of angels, immortals, telepaths, and who knows what else something was bound to go awry. That it was Ziggy and one of his friends was a worry but also well within Tom's experience too.

When he woke up to a text from the twins asking to come and talk to him, he happily invited one or both of them to come to the house in the afternoon. It was the quiet time in the house. Ziggy would be elsewhere and Tommy would have gone out for his usual afternoon wanderings. It left Aletayria in the gardens and Tom with little to do.

He was making some tea to relax because he could imagine the topic that would be at hand when one or both of them arrived.

Comments

[itmeanstruth]

Technically Isamu had at least a handful of trysts with lab partners while at University. However, nothing could have prepared him for helping Minoru figure any of this out.

“That’s why I came here... I don’t want to feel this...” he stumbled over trying to describe it, “this... craving for connection when I’m around him. He’s not a drug, he’s a person. You’re human and not out of your mind, how do I make it stop?!”

[hellomajortom]

"We crave connections with other humans too. It doesn't mean we're using them like a drug necessarily." Tom feels like this may be throwing the baby out with the bath water. "It sounds like you need boundaries for your connection. I'm not sure you know what you want. Until you do, he can't know how to behave except go with his wants."

"I haven't made it stop. I'm connected to my wife constantly." Tom knows that isn't the relationship here so it probably isn't the most helpful answer. "In general, I define my relationships and accept that the emotions, mental connection and physical contact are part of being around their species." Tom laughs quietly at his own thoughts. "It doesn't mean you have to let someone touch you like you don't want but you also can't tell them to shut up because you don't like parts of their communication."

Tom pours himself more tea. "The first thing you have to answer is what relationship do you want with him. He's polyamorous and polyromantic so the restrictions are mostly going to be from your side of things."

[itmeanstruth]

Minoru lowered his head, feeling rather ashamed that he was apparently overdue for a very important talk that, until now, no one ever had any reason to have with him.

“Minoru, it is perfectly all right to feel an attraction to someone or something. It does not need to be sexual attraction or even lead to sex. I have admired many of my peers in various ways. Dare I say it’s even natural to have conflicting emotions over someone. I remember countless times you reminded me of this while I was dating Hideki.”

“She was almost a female ME.”

“I honestly do not know what I was thinking...” he laughed softly. “But the point remains, talking through your wants can help you identify them. We can both assist with questions if you find yourself stuck.”

Minoru agreed, and with very little further prompting, answered, “well... I want a kind of relationship where it’s okay to come up to each other and just pull each other into a big hug. Completely hands on, but just... not in any of the sexual places? And no exchanging of bodily fluids?”

Being thrown up on, as disgusting as it was, was easier to deal with than having someone plant kisses on him. But at the time, he had far more important things on his mind than romantic attraction.

“Like, I just... want to enjoy his company, hear him go on and on about his crazy adventures, be someone he can come to and open up when he needs to talk... and I say that now, honestly, I mean every word! But when I’m around him, it’s like I just want to cuddle with him for some reason.”

[hellomajortom]

Tom didn't interrupt as they talked it over but he couldn't help the chuckle at the term 'sexual places'.

"I guarantee you've already touched him in sexual places without knowing it. He's usually used to humans not knowing because he has to hide it but I've never seen him deal with it when it's someone he wants, that doesn't want him."

Tom goes quiet for a moment because he has to wonder how much of any of this he has the right to say. In the end he figures Ziggy would understand his reasoning. "I think you need to refrain from thinking about physical contact from an alien as meaning the same thing it does to a human. A good example of this is that my wife has no nipples and no breasts. You could touch her chest all day and humans would think it's inappropriate but she wouldn't even understand why. The body part isn't there. Yet, there are certain ways of touching her hands that you shouldn't do because that is sexual."

Tom knew this was going to be the difficult part. It had taken him a long time to work through all of this alone. All he could do is give the boy a look of sympathy while Tom processed this all to try and give the kid as much as he might need to move forward.

"It sounds like you want to be more like brothers, sort of. You're going to have to tell him this, but you may have to accept that brother has different types of contact involved for an alien." Tom sighs collecting his words. "I know Ziggy kisses everyone, mostly on the cheeks and the shoulders. Antheans, as a species, don't kiss at all. I haven't asked Ziggy why he kisses people but you may find that they aren't as sexual as a human might think of them."

"It's all the more difficult because Ziggy is a species of one, well there are three now, but more or less there aren't others like him. Human and Anthean are jumbled for him. You're going to have to step back and ask him what gestures match what you want the relationship to be. You might find things you think are ok don't mean the same to him."

Tom felt like none of that was helpful and adds. "I can teach you some of the Anthean greetings and common things for families but he doesn't use all of them. He uses a lot of human gestures too."

[itmeanstruth]

Minoru cringed slightly when Tom mentioned just a couple of the basic differences in private parts. He and Ziggy had grabbed hands to scamper out of the bar. Minoru had no idea that was roughly the equivalent of groping him. Who knew what rubbing his back might have meant.

On the other hand, Isamu’s head shot up when Tom compared the relationship to a brotherhood of sorts and started discussing different gestures.

“Oh! Minoru! In addition to learning appropriate platonic Anthean gestures, you should teach Ziggy what Mama used to do when we were little, back when she tucked us in.”

Minoru looked over at his brother, and couldn’t help but laugh. “The forehead poke?”

“It did not make you squirm in disgust the way a kiss to the forehead often would. I remember that much quite clearly. But I believe Ziggy would appreciate knowing where that gesture comes from - since you did do it to him during the party.”

“I did?”

“You definitely did. And he may have misinterpreted it as rejection.”

[hellomajortom]

Tom is still listening to them but his hands come up to cover and rub his face.

"Are you talking about actually poking an Anthean in the forehead?" Tom suddenly feels like this is a daunting task. "He is sensitive under the enso he paints on his forehead and has weak bones. I'm not sure that's the best answer."

Tom sighs. "I think you need to learn about Anthean biology. He doesn't even sense the world the way we do."

[itmeanstruth]

“Oh...”

“It appears we are ignorant of more than just cultural norms, sir.” Isamu admitted, rubbing the back of his head.

Indeed, Minoru knew an Anthean's bones were hollow, but he wouldn’t have thought that a poke could have possibly caused injury. Granted, last night he also learned that the g-forces of being spun around were just as bad as being in a car...

[hellomajortom]

Tom's sympathy for thier ignorance comes back quickly. "It's a lot to learn."

He can admit that easily. He was still learning. "There are heightened senses involved too. He feels more than any human. I've had some experience with just how increased they are through my connection to Aletayria. I'm not sure there are human words for it but what we might consider a feather light touch is much more to them."

[itmeanstruth]

“I’d very much like to.” Minoru readily insisted. “Learn, I mean...

Isamu nodded as well. “I am also interested.”

He couldn’t hide his curiosity for something that did not appear to be well-documented. There weren’t going to be books for this.

There was something to be said about one day Minoru actually being able to ease some of those tense muscles after a long show, or maybe even help him with physical therapy for his hand. Without essentially groping. Somehow. If that was possible.

“But I also want to learn how to not feel so... high? The concert was amazing, but I had to buy the CD just to hear the songs. The moment he started, everything was a blur... an amazing blur! But a blur.”

[hellomajortom]

"Where do you want to start?" He asks because otherwise the idea is daunting and he might not know what to start with himself.

"At a concert?" Tom shook his head. "There's no avoiding it at one of his shows. I've been to hundreds of them and even I feel a little euphoric after them. Anything you did last night was tame compared to somethings I've seen. I suppose over time it becomes duller but it never goes away as far as I can tell."

[itmeanstruth]

“THAT was tame?!” Minoru held his head in his hands. “It didn’t feel tame.”

“Tame is relative.” Isamu added. “I did not personally feel anything I would have perceived as out of the ordinary, though I observed quite a bit of empathy-induced intoxication.”

He turned to Tom. “Is this something one builds a tolerance to, then?”

“What, I awkwardly curl up next to Ziggy until it feels normal?” Minoru groaned.

“I would have compared it more like a move you practice over and over again until you can land it safely and with precision.” He elaborated. The wheels were visibly turning in Minoru’s head once it was put that way. “So perhaps it would be best to begin with something you can practice. Anthean familial language and gestures. Or what Ziggy would perceive as such. With a brief overview of the romantic and sexual ones - so that you are aware of what to avoid.”

“Okay, yeah! Yeah, that makes sene.”

[hellomajortom]

"No one threw off their clothing, no orgies, no one stormed the stage." Tom shrugs. There were some crazy things he had seen. Tom listens and looks to Isamu. "I assume the lack of effect is because you subdue or hide your own emotions in some way. I wouldn't know for sure but it fits a pattern I've seen."

Tom shook his head. "I've been around hundreds of performances. It's not efficient. Concerts are not the same as everyday life from what I can tell."

All he can do is sigh. "There's nothing you can practice to block it. You just learn to accept and manage it happening. It's more like learning to drive drunk than gaining a tolerance to the alcohol."

He turned his attention to Minoru first. "Are you actually attracted to him and, if you are does he know? That will determine how we go forward." He sighs again wishing he still drank. Maybe that would make this easier. "Antheans communicate through touch. It might help to discuss what you think was sexual in contact you've already had. You don't seem to be uncomfortable with general or platonic physical contact if I've understood. Miscommunications usually go both ways."

[itmeanstruth]

This was going to be hard. As someone who never really experienced attraction, even answering that question was hard.

“I... I guess I am...” He admitted, glancing at his brother. Isamu wisely kept his mouth shut this time. “He knows I’m not interested in sleeping with him, but being attracted... I don’t know what he knows... I’m not even sure what I know.”

In other words, this was not a conversation they’d had. If it had been, he probably would have known about Ziggy’s polyamory much earlier too.

“He teases me a lot, but we both know it’s just teasing. He’s never actually acted on any of it. I didn’t think we’d done anything sexual...” he admitted. It was possible, though, that they had - from Ziggy’s point of view. He wasn’t sure anymore. “The kissing was just... icky?”

With his descriptions, there was clearly a tactile preference. Dry versus wet. Touching, in and of itself, was not a problem.

[hellomajortom]

"You might need to figure that out." Tom says as gently as possible. "It's going to be damned near impossible to start defining a relationship if you don't know what's in it or what you feel about the other person."

Tom was uncertain as they went on talking. It sounded like a lot of assumptions and very little knowledge. "Are you sure you both know? No penetration doesn't preclude something more than friendship especially for a species that can share minds and emotions. I'm not sure it even means no sex. I...."

Tom just clammed up thinking better of saying anything he'd experienced that was explicit instead he turned to the comment about Ickyness.

"Ziggy kisses everyone. He has since he was a child. Antehans thrive on physical contact. If they like you they're going to touch you." Except Tommy. Tommy didn't touch anyone really. Tom wasn't even sure if he liked anyone, though he did occasionally make physical contact with Aletayria. Still that wasn't relevant at the moment. "I had to adjust to the fact that he'll still curl up on my lap and sleep. Something humans don't do after they are a few years old."

"Maybe it would be worth thinking about limiting the kissing, like only as a first greeting or something? Or I don't know convince him kissing your shoulder is better and then there's always clothing in the way? Might be a greeting you could return then without being bothered?" Tom was grasping here between this kid's comfort and the woefully stubborn and impulsive behavior of his own child.

[itmeanstruth]

“I think, for the time being, it would be beneficial to work under the assumption that yes, you are attracted to him.” Isamu supplied. Whether it was helpful or not was yet to be determined. “You may be unsure, but I would wager that is because you have so little personal experience to work with. Not because of a lack of chemistry between you.”

“You really think so?”

“Would you mind if Ziggy curled up on your lap to sleep?” He probed. Minoru’s expression while Tom was talking about it, suggested that he found it cute.

“...no. I wouldn’t.” He even blushed a little.

“Then, yes, I do, in fact, think so.”

And even Minoru had to agree that kissing somewhere that was covered was a fair and fantastic compromise.

[hellomajortom]

Well, that was some progress. If nothing else they would leave here with a little more self understanding.

"Ziggy loves very deeply but he is a self-centered hurricane. It's not going to be easy, probably, settling into being near him." Tom takes a deep breath and shrugs. "As good as Hiroki is with him they've had some nasty arguments and misunderstandings. The alienness takes more time to adjust to than you expect."

[itmeanstruth]

Those were very accurate descriptions of one - Ziggy Stardust. (The fact that they’d already weathered those storms definitely reinforced everything Minoru told Hiroki. They really were perfect for each other, and of course, Ziggy would say yes!)

“You’re telling me...”

“I would ask you to clarify in what way, but I am certain the answer would be ‘in every way.” Isamu noted.

“So, about that crash course in alienness?”

[hellomajortom]

"What did you want me to clarify?" Tom had to ask because the topics had been vaguely changing randomly for awhile now.

"Yes, that. Where would you like to start?" Tom could only imagine.

[itmeanstruth]

“Apologies, it was humorous commentary on the presumably enormous number of ways that alienness would necessitate an adjustment period.”

Minoru rolled his eyes. Classic Isamu humor. But his brother had brought up a good point earlier.

“Well, if the relationship is closer to a brotherly one, or like, one level up from that? Then learning the right language, gestures, all of that... that sounds like a good place to start.”

He remembered a few of the things he’d picked up during the overdose - like how Tom ran his hand through Ziggy’s hair and it seemed to relax him.

[hellomajortom]

"It took me two years almost." Or he assumed it did. Between the calendars not matching and the long stints of unconsciousness it was a guess at best.

"Touch is always a good place to start with an Anthean, an form of touch. However, you're going to have to make boundaries or you'll end up with touch where you don't want it." That was vague but then most touch was appreciated by Ziggy.

[itmeanstruth]

“What are a few examples of good touches, then? Proper greetings? Hugs? Handshakes?” Minoru asked, and then quickly realized how that last one could be problematic. “Maybe not handshakes...”

[hellomajortom]

"They don't necessarily separate things into sexual and non-sexual based on placement of touches. That is determined by the connection between the people." Tom could settle into this type of discussion easily enough. "Pressing the palms together is a sign of closeness and acceptance. If Aletayria did that with you the meaning would be vastly different than if she and I did that."

He pauses and the crinkles up his brows wondering if they know about Ziggy's biology. "I wouldn't give him a hand massage or put your lips there but he does handshakes all the time because that's human traditions."

[itmeanstruth]

“Oh...”

That was different than human behaviors. But it also meant that whatever attraction there was would come across regardless.

“Pressing of the palms, huh?”

Of course, since he was close enough to Isamu’s chair, he held his hands out to try it.

“The hands are a sexual organ of sorts, if I recall correctly.” Isamu noted. “I would assume this is safe, but variations on the concept, such as locking fingers, or even holding hands, would carry different meanings?”

Minoru certainly did that last night. And would have easily taken things as far as a hand massage had Ziggy not had an erection immediately. If he hadn’t been turned in by that point, that would have set off the same chain reaction for sure.

[hellomajortom]

"You're turning an Anthean greeting into something human with human values." Tom interjects. "I think you're getting way too caught up in minutia and missing out on much larger concepts that would be more helpful."

Tom sighs. "You have to stop thinking like a human in some ways. Yes, the hands are involved in sex. They are also how an Anthean greets their children and parents which is absolutely not sexual. I will reiterate that for Antheans the meaning of touch is dictated by the interaction of the people involved not what the touch is."

Tom just has no idea how his own mind changed, being submerged in it probably. He was also free of the hang ups, fears, and discomfort Minoru faces. "I think we need to go back to basics before you two get carried away."

[itmeanstruth]

It was very difficult to not filter something through the lens of the human experience in order to understand it. Even Isamu found the thought exercise challenging.

Minoru leaned back in the chair, understandably frustrated.

“So, no matter what I do, he’s going to interpret it based on whatever our relationship is?”

The relationship, even the feeling of attraction itself, was extremely confusing to Minoru. It should be no wonder that Ziggy would also be confused. Turn up the effects of Anthean empathy, and of course there were going to be misunderstandings.

“How am I supposed to fix that?!”

“I believe the only reliable course of action would be an open and honest conversation with Ziggy.”

“That’s the problem! How do I even DO that? The minute I’m in his presence, I feel things! I feel drawn to him... It’s never going to be honest! He’s always going to feel like I’m using him, because by feeling these feelings at all, even a friendly hug... I’m getting something out of it and he’s not. I’m just as bad as the rest of his fans! He said so himself!”