(no subject)

[hellomajortom]

Tom had heard from his wife about the chaos the night before. It wasn't surprising to him. He'd seen some crazy things at Ziggy's concerts; fainting, screaming, people being liberated from constraints and throwing off their clothes and God might only know what he missed in the crowds and papers. With the addition of angels, immortals, telepaths, and who knows what else something was bound to go awry. That it was Ziggy and one of his friends was a worry but also well within Tom's experience too.

When he woke up to a text from the twins asking to come and talk to him, he happily invited one or both of them to come to the house in the afternoon. It was the quiet time in the house. Ziggy would be elsewhere and Tommy would have gone out for his usual afternoon wanderings. It left Aletayria in the gardens and Tom with little to do.

He was making some tea to relax because he could imagine the topic that would be at hand when one or both of them arrived.

Comments

[hellomajortom]

"No one threw off their clothing, no orgies, no one stormed the stage." Tom shrugs. There were some crazy things he had seen. Tom listens and looks to Isamu. "I assume the lack of effect is because you subdue or hide your own emotions in some way. I wouldn't know for sure but it fits a pattern I've seen."

Tom shook his head. "I've been around hundreds of performances. It's not efficient. Concerts are not the same as everyday life from what I can tell."

All he can do is sigh. "There's nothing you can practice to block it. You just learn to accept and manage it happening. It's more like learning to drive drunk than gaining a tolerance to the alcohol."

He turned his attention to Minoru first. "Are you actually attracted to him and, if you are does he know? That will determine how we go forward." He sighs again wishing he still drank. Maybe that would make this easier. "Antheans communicate through touch. It might help to discuss what you think was sexual in contact you've already had. You don't seem to be uncomfortable with general or platonic physical contact if I've understood. Miscommunications usually go both ways."

[itmeanstruth]

This was going to be hard. As someone who never really experienced attraction, even answering that question was hard.

“I... I guess I am...” He admitted, glancing at his brother. Isamu wisely kept his mouth shut this time. “He knows I’m not interested in sleeping with him, but being attracted... I don’t know what he knows... I’m not even sure what I know.”

In other words, this was not a conversation they’d had. If it had been, he probably would have known about Ziggy’s polyamory much earlier too.

“He teases me a lot, but we both know it’s just teasing. He’s never actually acted on any of it. I didn’t think we’d done anything sexual...” he admitted. It was possible, though, that they had - from Ziggy’s point of view. He wasn’t sure anymore. “The kissing was just... icky?”

With his descriptions, there was clearly a tactile preference. Dry versus wet. Touching, in and of itself, was not a problem.

[hellomajortom]

"You might need to figure that out." Tom says as gently as possible. "It's going to be damned near impossible to start defining a relationship if you don't know what's in it or what you feel about the other person."

Tom was uncertain as they went on talking. It sounded like a lot of assumptions and very little knowledge. "Are you sure you both know? No penetration doesn't preclude something more than friendship especially for a species that can share minds and emotions. I'm not sure it even means no sex. I...."

Tom just clammed up thinking better of saying anything he'd experienced that was explicit instead he turned to the comment about Ickyness.

"Ziggy kisses everyone. He has since he was a child. Antehans thrive on physical contact. If they like you they're going to touch you." Except Tommy. Tommy didn't touch anyone really. Tom wasn't even sure if he liked anyone, though he did occasionally make physical contact with Aletayria. Still that wasn't relevant at the moment. "I had to adjust to the fact that he'll still curl up on my lap and sleep. Something humans don't do after they are a few years old."

"Maybe it would be worth thinking about limiting the kissing, like only as a first greeting or something? Or I don't know convince him kissing your shoulder is better and then there's always clothing in the way? Might be a greeting you could return then without being bothered?" Tom was grasping here between this kid's comfort and the woefully stubborn and impulsive behavior of his own child.

[itmeanstruth]

“I think, for the time being, it would be beneficial to work under the assumption that yes, you are attracted to him.” Isamu supplied. Whether it was helpful or not was yet to be determined. “You may be unsure, but I would wager that is because you have so little personal experience to work with. Not because of a lack of chemistry between you.”

“You really think so?”

“Would you mind if Ziggy curled up on your lap to sleep?” He probed. Minoru’s expression while Tom was talking about it, suggested that he found it cute.

“...no. I wouldn’t.” He even blushed a little.

“Then, yes, I do, in fact, think so.”

And even Minoru had to agree that kissing somewhere that was covered was a fair and fantastic compromise.

[hellomajortom]

Well, that was some progress. If nothing else they would leave here with a little more self understanding.

"Ziggy loves very deeply but he is a self-centered hurricane. It's not going to be easy, probably, settling into being near him." Tom takes a deep breath and shrugs. "As good as Hiroki is with him they've had some nasty arguments and misunderstandings. The alienness takes more time to adjust to than you expect."

[itmeanstruth]

Those were very accurate descriptions of one - Ziggy Stardust. (The fact that they’d already weathered those storms definitely reinforced everything Minoru told Hiroki. They really were perfect for each other, and of course, Ziggy would say yes!)

“You’re telling me...”

“I would ask you to clarify in what way, but I am certain the answer would be ‘in every way.” Isamu noted.

“So, about that crash course in alienness?”

[hellomajortom]

"What did you want me to clarify?" Tom had to ask because the topics had been vaguely changing randomly for awhile now.

"Yes, that. Where would you like to start?" Tom could only imagine.

[itmeanstruth]

“Apologies, it was humorous commentary on the presumably enormous number of ways that alienness would necessitate an adjustment period.”

Minoru rolled his eyes. Classic Isamu humor. But his brother had brought up a good point earlier.

“Well, if the relationship is closer to a brotherly one, or like, one level up from that? Then learning the right language, gestures, all of that... that sounds like a good place to start.”

He remembered a few of the things he’d picked up during the overdose - like how Tom ran his hand through Ziggy’s hair and it seemed to relax him.

[hellomajortom]

"It took me two years almost." Or he assumed it did. Between the calendars not matching and the long stints of unconsciousness it was a guess at best.

"Touch is always a good place to start with an Anthean, an form of touch. However, you're going to have to make boundaries or you'll end up with touch where you don't want it." That was vague but then most touch was appreciated by Ziggy.

[itmeanstruth]

“What are a few examples of good touches, then? Proper greetings? Hugs? Handshakes?” Minoru asked, and then quickly realized how that last one could be problematic. “Maybe not handshakes...”

[hellomajortom]

"They don't necessarily separate things into sexual and non-sexual based on placement of touches. That is determined by the connection between the people." Tom could settle into this type of discussion easily enough. "Pressing the palms together is a sign of closeness and acceptance. If Aletayria did that with you the meaning would be vastly different than if she and I did that."

He pauses and the crinkles up his brows wondering if they know about Ziggy's biology. "I wouldn't give him a hand massage or put your lips there but he does handshakes all the time because that's human traditions."

[itmeanstruth]

“Oh...”

That was different than human behaviors. But it also meant that whatever attraction there was would come across regardless.

“Pressing of the palms, huh?”

Of course, since he was close enough to Isamu’s chair, he held his hands out to try it.

“The hands are a sexual organ of sorts, if I recall correctly.” Isamu noted. “I would assume this is safe, but variations on the concept, such as locking fingers, or even holding hands, would carry different meanings?”

Minoru certainly did that last night. And would have easily taken things as far as a hand massage had Ziggy not had an erection immediately. If he hadn’t been turned in by that point, that would have set off the same chain reaction for sure.

[hellomajortom]

"You're turning an Anthean greeting into something human with human values." Tom interjects. "I think you're getting way too caught up in minutia and missing out on much larger concepts that would be more helpful."

Tom sighs. "You have to stop thinking like a human in some ways. Yes, the hands are involved in sex. They are also how an Anthean greets their children and parents which is absolutely not sexual. I will reiterate that for Antheans the meaning of touch is dictated by the interaction of the people involved not what the touch is."

Tom just has no idea how his own mind changed, being submerged in it probably. He was also free of the hang ups, fears, and discomfort Minoru faces. "I think we need to go back to basics before you two get carried away."

[itmeanstruth]

It was very difficult to not filter something through the lens of the human experience in order to understand it. Even Isamu found the thought exercise challenging.

Minoru leaned back in the chair, understandably frustrated.

“So, no matter what I do, he’s going to interpret it based on whatever our relationship is?”

The relationship, even the feeling of attraction itself, was extremely confusing to Minoru. It should be no wonder that Ziggy would also be confused. Turn up the effects of Anthean empathy, and of course there were going to be misunderstandings.

“How am I supposed to fix that?!”

“I believe the only reliable course of action would be an open and honest conversation with Ziggy.”

“That’s the problem! How do I even DO that? The minute I’m in his presence, I feel things! I feel drawn to him... It’s never going to be honest! He’s always going to feel like I’m using him, because by feeling these feelings at all, even a friendly hug... I’m getting something out of it and he’s not. I’m just as bad as the rest of his fans! He said so himself!”

[hellomajortom]

"Humans do the same thing. A hug between friends is very different than a hug between lovers. Even those outside the relationship can tell sometimes." Tom sighs and tries to sort through all of this.

"I wasn't there for what happened but I don't think it is feeling his emotions that upset him." Tom swallows hard and speaks slowly because he is trying to find the right words to not be pushy or insulting. "From our current conversation it seems you want to have control of interactions and what you want is good. On the other hand, all I have heard from you is that everything he has done that might be affection is disgusting. That is a very strong and uneven dynamic that he might have picked up on without words. I know it is your sexuality and his not matching but you can't go around saying what I want is right and what you want is disgusting without there being backlash."

[itmeanstruth]

“I know! And I deserve it!” He exclaimed, burying his face in his hands.

That difference, that uneven dynamic and his part in it, was definitely top of mind.

“That’s... it’s why I texted you in the first place. I thought that if I could just, you know, not feel anything around Antheans, then things could just go back to making sense...”

[hellomajortom]

"Why don't you want to feel anything about people you obviously care for an are close to?" Tom asks cautiously.

After some silence he adds. "You may not want to think of it in these terms but as someone who doesn't want sex a telepath who likes physical contact that isn't sexual may have some benefits to having intimacy without penetration coming on the table. I think you just need to find your wants and boundaries and talk to him about it. It may not be comfortable but Ziggy is open to many kinds of relationships if his past has said anything. Just... well our world being so intolerant of sexuality, gender and especially aliens he's sort of learned that quick sex and not lingering is safe. I wish he hadn't learned it but that is something too. He... the friends he trusted that might have had a relationship like you want are the people who assaulted him to end his career. There's a lot to take into account here but I'll help you as much as I can, or my wife can if you want a more alien perspective."

[itmeanstruth]

Tom’s question stopped Minoru in his tracks. Did he actually want that?

“Would it be more accurate to say that what you actually want is for the discomfort caused by experiencing these new, confusing emotions to stop?” Isamu interjected as he reached out and put a hand firmly on Minoru’s shoulder. “That will only come through letting yourself experience them. And it IS okay to experience them. And to talk about them.”

Even with Ziggy.
Or rather, especially with Ziggy.

“You are an emotional person. You always have been. It may not be expressed sexually, but - make no mistake - you feel, and you feel very deeply. If you didn’t, you wouldn’t be you.” Isamu encouraged. “And if I were to hazard a guess, given that Antheans are an empathic species, I would say Ziggy probably likes that about you.”

The twins were quiet as Tom explained some of the things that might make the conversation hard from Ziggy’s point of view too.

“...He might be just as confused and uncomfortable as I am?”

[hellomajortom]

He let the twins talk themselves through things without interfering. If he was honest, he was learning about the twins as they went on. Though he had met them there was always more information to know.

"Ziggy does like people who are caring." Tom agrees.

"I'm sure he respects your sexuality but controlling your body's reaction to other people isn't always possible. Getting sexually aroused around someone who isn't interested in sex but is interested in you has to be confusing."

Tom isn't about to mention the discomfort caused by the physical reactions. However, something else important comes to mind. "Ziggy, by Anthean standards, is only a teenager and he is dealing with both male and female emotions and biological responses."

Tom took a deep breath and then shook his head. "Ziggy has only had two years to adjust to humans as anything other than a parent."

[itmeanstruth]

“As confusing as someone who’s never been attracted to anyone actually being attracted to someone.” Minoru replied softly. “Just like how I can’t always control how my mind reacts to Anthean empathy...”

Isamu simply nodded.

Their emotions, or perhaps the discomfort over new (or relatively new) emotions, weren’t all that different, in that respect. One was a ninety year old teenager and one was a twenty four year old teenager.

[hellomajortom]

"Or someone falling in love with an alien they find hideous and unnerving." Tom smiles broadly. God knows he's been in a similar situation. "It's helpful to think of the casual empathy more as a.. well I started off thinking about it as an augment to their tone of voice or eventually learned it's a replacement for facial expressions. It might be easier on you if you tried to link what you're feeling to his behavior or expressions. It felt damned invasive when I first felt it."

His own experiences might help, maybe, though he didn't have the exact same problems there had been plenty. "Deeper empathic connection is meant to be that; sharing emotions as communication."

[itmeanstruth]

Isamu smirked at the way Tom described his own relationship.

Minoru, meanwhile, was thinking deeply about Tom’s initial reaction to those empathic powers.

“Sharing emotions on a deeper level... I wanted to talk like that.” He admitted. “That’s what I thought the concert was going to be like...”

Instead...

“Instead, if we are to use Tom’s reverse engineering method, your feeling intoxicated is likely a reflection of Ziggy’s own intoxication - both metaphorically, as in the thrill of a performer engaging in their performance, and very, very literally.” Isamu proposed. “Perhaps similar to what Ziggy might feel from you after you land on that third rooftop well above a height that you could not survive falling. Were your situations and abilities reversed, of course.”

From a neurological standpoint, it was a fair comparison. Both elicited similar dopaminergic responses.

“...that makes a lot of sense!”

[hellomajortom]

"A direct connection is private and takes consent, even as wild as Ziggy is." Tom comments. "Antehans who connect with the same person often can become bound. My wife senses me. Ziggy can feel the moment Hiroki enters the Nexus from his own universe. It's not something that they go into without talk and preparation."

"It's more than that." Tom says even if the basics were right. "His intoxication is an everyday things. He's self medicating to deal with humans. Thomas and my wife have methods other than cocaine."

Tom sighs a little and considers their description. "That would only be a part of it. Ziggy projects his emotions from being on stage but he also takes in what comes from the crowd and amplifies it when he sends it back. That's why huge crowds get crazy. I honestly didn't know how it happened until the other Antheans experienced it and could explain what was happening."

[itmeanstruth]

“Oh!” Minoru’s eyebrows went up. Suddenly, he understood why Ziggy considered that so intimate, far more intimate than physical sex. He hadn’t realized the implications.

“Right... Cocaine levels things.” Minoru remembered Tom mentioning it while Ziggy was literally overdosing.

“The concert was anything but level, however. Especially if the energy is continuously amplified in this empathic feedback loop.” Isamu cocked his head. It made it all the more impressive that he wasn’t affected. “From your description, dare I say that Mister Newton downplayed the levels of magnitude involved. Granted, he also finished the better part of a bottle of gin in our short, but enjoyable, conversation.”

Minoru, though, knew that Tommy had quite a bit to self-medicate for. Ziggy had told him a tiny fraction, and it still made him want to throw up.

[hellomajortom]

Tom nods to the comments and then adds to Isamu's comment. "Only while he's performing but he comes off the stages he's amped up. From how Aletayria explained it doesn't alter other people's emotions but expands and increases one's own emotions. Love, peace, happiness, and similar emotions are most effected unless his mood turns sour."

Tom looks away because the more he learned about what happened to Tommy the more it disturbed Tom on a basic level. "Newton is very old and controlled. Between his military training and what humans did to him, his emotions are not roused by many things any longer."

"Gin is a painkiller and anesthetic. The human equivalent of double dipping in opium and pain pills."